I'm reading the whole story on kindle but I found here in the process (thank you) across the 3 books

There are a few continuity errors, Malcolm becomes Martin (or is it the other way round later on) and there's a thing about if you're more than 2/3s one way you can only be happy that way at first which switches to only people 2/3s one way can change genders, when Charlie asks.

That said a reread while taking notes might catch most of those, and on the whole the story is captivating enough that while it is notable I still want to finish the book and write some fan fiction (same universe, same general plot, a slightly differently programmed ship going in the other direction and a lot of generations more have passed before my planetfall/colony)

8/10

awesome read

Dylan

This story is completely paradoxical and full of nonsense
Never a machine or automatic device can be built without a manual positioning, especially in a ship! never be left tweens without the supervision of at least one adult, a ship may never be started without the supervision of a deck officer.

As for the paradox (I read the other 2 book of the trilogy) "The machine can not intervene surgically on the penis, without consent BUT can transform the entire interior of the body and even make artificial insemination without consent and the happiness of the person may be a forced decision: This story is pure pedophilia, rape, physical and continual harassment.

What kind of parent left his child in the clutches of a "Machine"?
It's a vision Apocalyptic ; worse than the end of the world.

THE WORST: this is great writing! I therefore read through...with tears

I love it for that

Cariños y gracias

instead of sugar use splenda, you can use it for drkins or cooking (cookies, cakes, tea, and so on) splenda taste a lot like sugar. Another good way is eat the food you want (not fast food) but ..when you eat, only eat when your pain goes away, don't keep eating because you like the food and it taste soooo good and you don't want to stop, no, no, no stop yourself when the pain goes a way even though you may have food still on your plate, put it up for later or through it way (either one you like). Just eat 3 times a day what ever you like even have a snack between meal (crackers, breakfast bars, whatever you want) But the main thing is always make sure you eat some kind of vegetables and fruit everyday. I gave birth to my baby girl 2 years ago, and i did this plain, and to tell you i am back in my old jeans. I always eat a salad everyday with my meal.As for working out running is a good way try to run about 1/2 mile then in a couple of days try 1 mile, do situps first start with 10 and in a couple of day do 15, then 20, then 25 and so on keep pushing your self, also do pushups the same way. Try to ride a bike around the block a couple of time or roller skating, even try a work out video (something fast) or just turn on the music and dance lol it sounds funny, but dancing is a good way to burn fat. Good luck

Disgusting...

Loved your story all the way to the end but didnt like the end wish you could continue writting you really are a great writer thanks for all you do hun

I hope you do some more

Looks like the story did get finished, but you have to buy the next two parts of the trilogy. just do a search for the title, g11 mistaken identity. I'm interested but not where I have to keep a downloaded or paper copy somewhere.. =(

  ITS NOT FINISHED ..... WE ARE WAITING ... landfall or not..
what happens to these kids ?  is there completion ?
do they complete the trip ?  did they finish transion of the genders ?  good good writeing great author .. unfinished story..

peace Rone xoxoxoxoxoxoxo :)

Loved your story. I also want more.

Love Lisa

Yeah I Was Wondering What Happened Next I Was Just Getting Into It Than Boom It Was Done And I Was Like Noooooooo

come on there must be MORE? do they to many unanswered questions. do he become a she and marry karen? what happens to the others?

I just discovered G11 Mistaken Identity. I read all 12 installments rather quickly, and then proceeded to read some of the later reader comments. I agree with some, others not so much. Regardless, the story has an interesting (dare I say fascinating?) premise. I know it's likely been some time since the author has worked on this, but I will hold out hope that the story will be revisited sometime, perhaps a sequel involving planetfall, parent's reactions, the breeding process, etc. Meanwhile I will further explore other reader's comments.

Thank you Sarah for your effort. Nicely done.
Maddie

This story is a near perfect story. It has science fiction elements, fantasy elements, etc. It is great for people like me. My only complaint... Steve should have succumbed to Karan in part 12. It would make him even more conflicted than he was. Have him completely break down in part 13.

The story drips with prejudice and stereotypes to me.
It started out quite good but then all the usual idiosyncrasies came out to play.
Anyone believing in this gotta be 'squarer' than a square :)
Sorry, no 'open minds' to see there.

Yoron

This is an excellent story so far.  However there are a few minor problems.

First, there is way too much emphisis on clothes.  Probably over a quarter of the words are decicated to this subject.  Even eary teenaged girls would discuss something else occasionally.

Second, neither Karen nor Steve have even thought about a more sexually apropriate name.  This is expecially true for Karen who has decided to be male.  This is an important subject for a transexual going in either direction.

Third, if I were Steve I would have been more forceful with Jackie when she put her demands on him.  Steve needs to let Jackie know that she can't push him around.  When you continue this story I would suggest Steve does that soon.

Fourth, Charles and Sylvia need to finally switch their sexes already.  They act like the idea intregues them but they aren't ready to "pull the trigger."

Fifth, although Karen sussefully dealt with Colin's prejudice and violence, Steve needs to put limits on Karen's violence before it gets more out of control.  Steve has the power of love on his side, although he may need to have the operation to accomplish that goal.

Note: my comments are in Americanese instead of the British you speak.

Shelly, aka shalimar

Hi Sara

You are SO right! Of course Steve is a girl! The whole point is that he is released from the anxiety of having to CHOOSE whether to be or dress that way by the intervention of the Machine - unlike those of us who live on Earth. He is therefore thrust into the heart of some of the TG issues stripped of responsibility.

Hope you enjoy the rest of the story as well.

Sarah

Oh and I'll try my luck again, hoping I know what coding to use spaces...

I'd like to point out too that the common freudian view, common in society even nowadays, is that everyone tends to masculinity or aspires to it, and that masculine is better than feminine. It also implies that when a male is feminized it is an act of derision and a punishment.

I know it has been used that way, but that's mostly because this view has been internalized as such by society at large, not because it's true.

I'd concede that most guys are repulsed by the idea of 'looking girly' or even remotely feminine, and make sure to enforce that on others, however said others feel. Many are feeling secure in their masculinity without feeling a need to assert it. As in 'it is, so be it and it won't change'. If it is confronted however they feel endangered if they cannot reassert their masculinity. Some feel that giving in to feminity, even remotely or temporarily (ie losing a bet) will permanently damage their male pride, or sense of self.

In other words, they're so rigid about their self-perception that even a tiny push will 'break' it and make them scared and what not. This certainly isn't all guys, but it is a lot of them, especially as they're young and influenceable.

I'm really sorry about my comment's lack of spaces, no idea if I have to use some form of code, helm or otherwise, but I did type my text with paragraphs and spacings...that didn't go over.

I would tend to disagree with most of those who commented negatively towards the story. Given I only read it as it was completed (this part anyways, the first 12 chapters), but throughout the story, I could only agree with the diagnosis the machine made.

-Only Steve doesn't realize "she's" a girl yet. I wonder what will -happen if he comes to the conclusion that his dressing etc. has not -been his own choice to avoid the bullies but is only because of the -hormones the machine is feeding him. Could be a major backlash coming.

Steve seems to have come to assume that.

Oh it's easy, it's based on the basic assumption that he -should- have been a boy, based on first sex assignment, solely based on genitals, at birth. From a society's perspective, his point of view can be understood, although flawed, as it is rather common.

People usually will view sexual organs as the perogative of gender. As in sex precludes gender. It is most oftenly forgotten that the brain-wiring, which would correctly compare with a spirit comparison (that the machine has made), is what determines how a person is 'gendered' and is completely independant of genitalia, although usually congruent. I mean sure, you were raised to wear some type of clothing, and play with some toys, and act in certain ways, not even knowing why, you were told to do it though and generally assumed this to be irrevocably chosen and well-thought, by the persons who did choose. Those who would rebel against some of those things will probably be harassed or made fun of and quickly-enough their own opinion disvalued, which is consistent with the general 'hiding of the real self' that many TS do for their own sanity's sake, before coming to terms with their real self. Few have the opportunity to express their real self, many of those who have still have fears of persecution of harassment, generally founded too, because of societal bigotry and misunderstanding.

You can clearly see at some points in the story that Steve will choose 'not to do' something, not because he doesn't want to, but because he feels he would be ridiculed for it, because he also fears that it wouldn't be what a boy would do (and that's relying on his memory of seeing others and knowledge of stereotype, I could do that too). Also a lot of Steve's reluctance has got to do with a feminine behavior, or anything considered as him accepting his 'fate' as a girl as non-manly, and how he could 'never return to be a boy' if he let himself go (and face others who would ridicule him about liking girl things, if/when he would change).

What is still holding back in the end of this part is mostly about considering that the machine has implanted thoughts into him, although he genuinely feels like a girl, and he goes on to describe such feelings. He also goes to great pains to contradict his love as non-genuine, when he himself knows it is genuine. He somehow feels all-that to be a conspiration from The Machine, whom could not be inferring with thoughts and emotions that way.

And no, not even hormones can change all your way of thinking. Being on Hormone-Replacement-Therapy myself, I should know. I've also read quite extensively on it, and nothing hints at a change of behavior caused by hormones themselves. The change is usually due to expressing more freely what was already felt, letting yourself be, but it was already there. So taking estrogen won't make you act like a girl if you're Mr Macho, don't worry; you'll certainly have to worry about impotence and lowered libido though.

And before anyone suggests it, I'd like to say that libido and male-behavior are not correlative or interdependant. Meaning a lower libido won't make you any girlier, and a higher one won't make you more masculine in any other thing. Just makes you more or less horny.

Steve should eventually, in my humble opinion, come to terms with how his thinking that his thinking was altered simply is paranoia. This could be more readily done by the machine stating or proving that it could not directly affect behavior or thought. The only thing holding Steve back is his thinking that it's not him thinking, simply put.

I'll just use this quote as proof:

"Oh I didn't mean just now! Anyway, you're only sad because you're fighting being a girl. You're trying to get back to being a boy for no good reason. Honestly, I think I'd make a better boy than you ever did, and I'm certainly don't want to turn into one!"

Steve looked up at her, as she smiled down at him. The words of the Machine, the pronouncement that his spirit was 82% female, came back to him. Why did everyone except him think that he was a girl?

"Perhaps you would," he said. "But I was raised to be a boy, and I intend to be one again. I owe it to my Mum and Dad for a start!"

She shook her head. "Part of growing up is doing things for your own sake, you know Steve," she said sagaciously. "Never mind what they might want, what do you want? Do you want to be a boy again?"

"Yes," he answered, with much more certainty that he felt. ----

Notice the 'much more certainty then he felt' it proposes that he feels compelled to say it, without believing it himself.

I'm really looking forward to reading the next parts and I think the story's great so far.

Sara Zeal

I so much enjoyed another one of your stories that I felt drawn to read others. This was as good as the first and held my attn to the end. Very good.  

Sharah,
Good character development.  That'st the problem.  I'm so involved in their story, I can't believe you can't help them achieve their ultimate lives.

Dear Sarah,
I can see why you decline fan mail : you'd get so much you would have no time to write stories. I'm with Oliver Twist ; More Please !!
Love and respect,
                Eleanor.

Hi there everyone.

Well it'll be a little while before the next bits of the story are posted. That's my fault not Crystal's - I'm holding on till the trilogy is completed so I don't get boxed into a corner with the plot.

If anyone really can't wait, I'm happy to send preview chapters with the caveat that they might not be exactly as posted eventually. Send me an email through the link above, and I'll send the files.

Equally, if anyone wants to write similar stuff using the same premise ( like wot DrBill does - see the Cyberboard ) there are some guidance notes about the Universe this takes place in, which I'll send to anyone who wants them.

Anyway, really happy most of you seem to like it, and apologies for slowing things down.


Love from Sarah

Just read chapters 1 - 12, and I'm impressed.

I like the concept of alien machines deciding the sex that each person should be. It holds together quite well and makes a plausible premise for the rest of the story. You have a nice style and a very slow build to the point now where Karen is pleased to be who she is/is becoming and Steve is right on the edge of tumbling down the hill of denial he's created.

For some reason, maybe because I read too many TG stories, it bugs me a little to see femininity so often tied together with clothes and make-up. You put in more than your two cents there, but you did attempt and largely succeeded in balancing it by having Steve come to terms with female relationships. I'm also glad that you've decided to change the scene a little with a new planet to survey, developing a whole new range of activities and conflicts together.

A couple of minor criticisms: some of the scenes were repetitive, like the girls feeling his incipient breasts, gushing about how he looked in the outfit for the dance, etc. And please lay off the exclamation marks. It seems like a lot of people are shouting or, especially the girls, shrill.

Great story, Sarah.

Aardvark

One thing that I think some people may have missed or forgotten is that the machine wasnt created by humans and as such will not necessarily come to the same conclusions than a machine programmed by humans. If you dont think that the machines decisions are consistent with human nature then its probably because they are consistent with the 'others' way of thinking.

Please please please!!!

Find somewhere else to post chapters to.  I'm so fed up with waiting a month or more for a new chapter.  And what's with no chapter in this update?  Will we have to wait 2 months for the next chapter?

Dayna.

> Comment by Jezzi Stewart on 02/27/05

> No comment.  I had thought Dr. Bill and I were engaged in a rather
> civilized discussion of possibilities.  

That certainly was my intention and experience.

DrBill

No comment.  I had thought Dr. Bill and I were engaged in a rather civilized discussion of possibilities.  

Wow, this story and the author Sarah Bayen are getting better and better! The growh of each is outstanding and the quality is top notch.

Anticipation is the word, but it is not storng enough on its own. Hm, NEED! That's it! I NEED to read more!

Huggles
Angel

In Comment by Angel O'Hare on 02/11/05:

...

> Now for my two cents worth on the merits of the discussion by
> Jezzi amd the good Dr.

Now where did I park my Tardis? <-;

> You both are not machines created by a higher intelligence.

Well, that is a subject for much (and often bitter) theological debate. But neither of us is speaking as such a machine.

> You both have not had several generations to perfect your skills
> and crafty ways as has the machine.

True as far as it goes. But we do have knowledge of some of the information that the machine is basing its analysis on. While I can't really comment on Jezzi's background, my own background in both computers and psychology give me some insight into the information that the Machine would have regarding humans, and the processes it has already exhibited in utilizing that information. But, that being said, I am not Sarah and Sarah is the one who is creating this story and its universe. It is entirely possible for her to, by fiat, have the Machine act in a way I would not have thought consistent with what we have seen so far.

In the end, it *is* just a story. Although the "just" is seriously misleading. For some of us, it is entertaining to find and project the consistencies in that story - even to argue over them - just as some people do with the Star Trek, Star Wars, or even SRU universes. As John wrote, the story inspires people to be "waiting to read more, making predictions, looking forward to seeing if" they're right. Just as your stories do.

> Is it not a very difficult thing to use number based equations to
> try and decipher human emotions?

Complex, but not very difficult. And much of the complexity is involved in reducing context and observations ("body language", facial expression, pupil dilation, heartbeat, respiration, perspiration, etc.) to such numbers. A task which the Machine has shown itself to be fairly good at. Some parts of modern psychometrics (the psychological version, not the parapsych. version) already do that, but less effectively.

> Reasonings based on ratios and percentages, all relative to a
> success quotient?

That is one of the root elements of Teaching Theory. And, when used correctly, it is very effective.

> Giggle, giggle. You are trying to write someones story based on your
> experiences and knowledge, not unlike what the machine is doing to
> Karen and Steve.

No, Sarah is writing the story. We are trying to *interpret* the story and, like John, see how consistent our predictions and interpretations turn out to be. In that regard, I have some elements which operate both as advantages and disadvantages. As I once commented, I have read previews of some later parts of the story. Since those first became available to me (about the time part 7 was released), I have done very little predicting and have concentrated on responding (without using such later information unfairly) to the comments and projections of others (like Jezzi).

> Two machines, both in their own crafts, and both having the same
> amount of humans to...Jezzi Machine and Bill Machine.

For now, the only thing that counts is Sarah's Machine.

> I propose you both write a fanfic based on Sarah's universe.

As if you hadn't already read my outline for a story in that Universe.
One part of the usual fanfic model would not be appropriate, however. We would have to use different characters. Sara's characters are quite busy enough with her stories.

> This will do two things.

Three things. In my case, as I indicated in my response to Pippa K, it would show how poor a writer I am. My best hope is to find a real writer to team up with for such an endeavor.

> 1) It will allow you to make the story go the way you each want
> it to go.

To the extent that it is true for any writer. The darn things take on a life of their own, and don't always cooperate.

> 2) It will let you both utilize your philosophies and beliefs to
> there fullest.

Now that poses some intriguing possibilities. It would be fascinating to see what Jezzi would do in Sarah's universe.

> Who knows, maybe you both might discover your psychologies are
> flawed? Giggle, giggle.

That is rather a given. The question is whether the flaws are significant.

DrBill

Anyway, Jezzi's and Dr Bill's discussion aside, this was a very good chapter! Well written and not RUSHED! Giggle, giggle.

Well done Sarah!!!!!!!!!
Huggles
Angel

Now for my two cents worth on the merits of the discussion by Jezzi amd the good Dr.

You both are not machines created by a higher intelligence. You both have not had several generations to perfect your skills and crafty ways as has the machine.

Is it not a very difficult thing to use number based equations to try and decipher human emotions? Reasonings based on ratios and percentages, all relative to a success quotient?

Giggle, giggle. You are trying to write someones story based on your experiences and knowledge, not unlike what the machine is doing to Karen and Steve.

Two machines, both in their own crafts, and both having the same amount of humans to...Jezzi Machine and Bill Machine.

I propose you both write a fanfic based on Sarah's universe. This will do two things.
1) It will allow you to make the story go the way you each want it to go.
2) It will let you both utilize your philosophies and beliefs to there fullest. Who knows, maybe you both might discover your psychologies are flawed? Giggle, giggle.

Huggles dear friends
Angel

Jezzi Stewart on 02/03/05 said:

>    In response to Dr. Bill:

[...]

>  2)  I disagree about the name.  While to The Machine he is G11,
> The Machine, as aware as it is about what's necessary to "guide"
> him to being a girl, the power of skirts to humans, for example,
> would I think be aware of the power of a name to humans. It might
> be waiting to see if a femme name came naturally from the rest of
> the kids - Steve sliding into Stevie sliding into Stephie, for
> example - which would be better than having to use blackmail
> again to make the kids call him a femme name.

There are problems with that argument. Most of them come from the fact that there are a number of sexually ambiguous names, including "Steve" (short for Stephen/Steven or Stephany). That being the case, the Machine may not reach a strong general conclusion about the power of "use" names for humans. Worse, many of the distinctly femme name variants also carry age and relationship connotations in some circumstances. Calling Steve "Stevie" could be interpreted as implying that he is effectively a young child, especially in relation to the speaker. Or that he is otherwise significantly inferior to the speaker. And then there is the simple fact that such a name change would be unnecessarily confusing for everyone. All told, the Machine would consider the strategy unattractive.

Skirts (kilts notwithstanding) and bras are not sexually ambiguous, so it does use them. As set up, residence is not sexually ambiguous, so it uses that. Panties can stray into a sexual gray area, so it has to work harder to keep them unambiguous. The same with blouses, t shirts, and the like.

DrBill

I'm really enjoying the story.  But with crystal's ISP issues its taking way too fucking long between tiny chapters.

Please start combining chapters together or ask crystal to post more than one at a time.  Its so bloody frustrating barely getting 24 hours in a chapter, then waiting a month or more for the next chapter.

Dayna.

In response to Dr. Bill:
1)  Right, I should have gone back and checked for the exact wording rather than rely on my way too old memory.  However, I still think it was out of character for him to not even think about wearing the pants, even if only there in private - who knows it might even have worked in The Machine's favor as he compared the feelings in the boy pants to those in the femme clothes he'd been wearing.

2)  I disagree about the name.  While to The Machine he is G11, The Machine, as aware as it is about what's necessary to "guide" him to being a girl, the power of skirts to humans, for example, would I think be aware of the power of a name to humans. It might be waiting to see if a femme name came naturally from the rest of the kids - Steve sliding into Stevie sliding into Stephie, for example - which would be better than having to use blackmail again to make the kids call him a femme name.

Jezzi Stewart on 02/02/05 said:

> <<  "Of course," Steve went on, waving the skirt impatiently.
> "Come on, take it, and try it on. I'm not allowed to wear
> trousers, according to the Machine, but there's no particular
> reason that you shouldn't wear a skirt."  >>

> This seems completely out of character for Steve.  he has a
> chance to get wear pants and he doesn't take it  ??  Just
> because the machiner told him he couldn't ?  I would think
> he would have jumped at the chance to trade.  He wouldn't be
> getting the girls in trouble, since he's not getting them
> from them.  

What he was told was "it said that if Steve ever wore trousers, we'd all have to go back to wearing skirts." The part about getting them from the girls was a later paraphrase.

...

>  As fasr as getting Charles in trouble, as far as I recall the
> machine never said boys couldn't give teve pants

See above. Charles would get in trouble with both the Machine and the girls. Especially the girls.

> and besides I imagine he's already in trouble for borrowing and
> wearfing Steve's skirt.

Yes, he should be. But since it was not in "public", and was fairly brief, it would probably not make a big deal of it.

...

> When does the machine make steve have a girl's name?  

It already has: G11. It doesn't take official notice of personal names. It probably wouldn't care if he started calling himself Bananafritter.

DrBill

<<  "Of course," Steve went on, waving the skirt impatiently. "Come on, take it, and try it on. I'm not allowed to wear trousers, according to the Machine, but there's no particular reason that you shouldn't wear a skirt."  >>

This seems completely out of character for Steve.  he has a chance to get wear pants and he doesn't take it  ??  Just because the machiner told him he couldn't ?  I would think he would have jumped at the chance to trade.  He wouldn't be getting the girls in trouble, since he's not getting them from them.  Why is he so keen on obeying the machine now when he has a chance for a minor revolt?  As fasr as getting Charles in trouble, as far as I recall the machine never said boys couldn't give teve pants and besides I imagine he's already in trouble for borrowing and wearfing Steve's skirt.

Steve seems once again at the breaking point.  Maybe he should really try to hurt himself; if that didn't convince the machine he was unhappy nothing will.

When does the machine make steve have a girl's name?  I think that might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.  "We're sorry but we all have to call you Priscilla now, or the machine won't let us wear slacks /  will make us wear skirts."

I love the story.  I like forced fem and was really hooked from the beginning.  I think it is interesting the way both Steve and Karen react to and resist their changed gender roles even as they move deeper and deeper into their new roles.  

after part 9:
For all practical purposes, Steve IS a girl now, mentally and behaviorally.  The commisseration scene at the end with Sarah was pure girl!    And Karen was all clueless boy in the viewing room scene.  GREAT WRITING!  Only Steve doesn't  realize "she's" a girl yet.  I wonder what will happen if he comes to the conclusion that his dressing etc. has not been his own choice to avoid the bullies but is only because of the hormones the machine is feeding him.  Could be a major backlash coming.  I also still have a slight suspicion - although it's less now - that Sarah and Jeanette are agents of the machine.   If I'm right, what if steve finds out?  Can't wait for part 10.

Fantastic job - you've definitely got me waiting to read more, making predictions, looking forward to seeing if I'm right!

Although your story has much greater depth than most stories I've read, I can't help but wonder what's going on at an even deeper level; what gossip is/speculations are there going around, kept very quiet, about what the humans really think their 'saviours' are up to? I guess I'm being influenced by the atmosphere of 'conspiracy theories' that abound in American society....

I don't think I'm all that clear as to what the criteria were that were applied to picking the grandparents - what made them the appropriate candidates to be picked for the journey & continuation of the species? I also can't help but wonder how what's happening to Karin and Steve plays into the bigger picture - is it really just what they were told, that their 'auras' revealed that they were the opposite genders, or is there a greater significance to the whole transformation - is there more than just their 'aura' energy and latent communicative/diplomatic/physical abilities that are being perfected, or are their other abilities that are developing, that we/they can't yet see?

I'll just have to wait & find out....

I've said it before I'll say it again.  I'm really enjoying your story, but I'm truly frustrated at the rate at which chapters are being posted.  Can't you do something to speed this up?

Dayna.

I really enjoyed the story.  I liked it more towards beginning though - because I'm more into forced fem, than anything else.  Your characters always seem to accept their fate in the end, but then again you can't please everyone

after part 8:

I am really surprised that the machine is letting Charles be Steve's date.  Maybe the machine figures that's better than having Charles perhaps actually be hooked up with a girl it said he could switch with.  However, I may still win my bet; it's still 3 hours to the dance.  My new bet is that Steve will end up going the whole nine girl yards, with heels, purse, makeup on, and feminine hair as well as the actual dress and unders ; since he's already agreed to the jewellry, i think this is a pretty safe one.

While I was glad to see Steve's new "Never let 'em see you cry" positive attitude, I wonder how long it will take before "she" and "Karl" realize that they have gone so far to let the machine know it hasn't won that the machine really has won?

I also would hate to see Steve become the negative feminine stereotype and simply cringe and scream helplessly while Karen defends him against the bullies.  I think Steve should learn some girl's self defense moves so she could fight IF/WHEN NECESSARY and put the bullies down along with karen.  I do think you have given Steve very positive femininity so far, playing the role of nurturer and supporter, but also the check on Karen's growing and sometimes illogically violent masculinity:  

A threat:
Karen becoming Karl:  hit it!
Steve becoming Stevie:  wait; there may be better non-violent ways.

I agree with Karen that Steve is a much better person as a girl, but maybe more time should be spent on Karen; is she a much better person as a boy?  This is, after all, a F to M story as well as a M to F one.

Nice story, well done professional style. Not your ussual story depth, much deeper build-up of characters and a real sense of the conflict! Great work, more!!!

Dear Sarah,

Through with chapter 7, I like your story! I can see this transformed into a very nice anime script. An anime that has more depth than the usual fare that goes only for funny situations.

I am looking forward to the big dance event. Will Steve really go with Charles or will Charles go with someone else (hint, hint) so that they both can be reassigned and we'll have _four_ tg people?

Too bad the Others did not invent the holodeck (or have they hid it so far?). I'd like to see the ai of the computer cleverly tricked into doing what the young adults want.

Will the group meet other pupils hid so far on the generation ship?
What couples will emerge in the end? What turbulences will we witness before the first pregnancy? Will they have more than one child each? Does each first child go into cold storage for later use? Will the little group experience planetfall or go into cold storage? What other activities do the pupils engage in? There are bound to be (or have been) some "doctor games", don't you think?

Lots of questions. Please keep the characters alive, I'd like to read more, learn more of their inner struggles and outer conflicts. Elaborate a little more on each character.

You've done well above average so far. Please keep on!

Thank you, Shantiva

Hi Sarah

congratulations on your story to date , I have enjoyed reading it so far and eagerly await the rest.

Do you post elsewhere ? Unfortunately Crystals Storysite hasn't updated in three weeks and I'd like to read the whole story sometime soon.

On the story structure so far I believed like many other previous comments that things were looking very despondant and hopeless for Steve. I also thought he might attempt self harm to demonstrate his misery to the machine. Steve's sudden determination to show everyone he is not beaten is entirely feasible ( fight or flight reaction kicks in ).
I'm not quite so convinced that a young boy fighting back might do so by being the best feminine boy though. I would have thought he would try to ignore the forced dressing and try to do boy things with the boys to show he's not a girl at least for the first week.

The emotional changes due to hormones and the support given by the girls as opposed to the humiliation used by the boys would take effect on Steve attitude soon but possibly not this quickly.

I too hope that Karen and Steve end up as a happy couple even though we have lost focus on Karen at this moment.

I look forward to the posting of the rest of the parts soon.
All kudos to yourself for a very engaging story so far.

all the best
regards
Bushy

> Comment by Karen Page on 12/12/04

> An excellent story but with the delay of episodes post part 7
> I decided to reread it again.

> One issue I found that nobody else has commented on is that all
> the parents appear to only have had one child.  All the children
> are aged 14 and there is no indication of twins etc.  Therefore
> there will be half the number of children each cycle.

Actually, I commented on that in my 11/29 note here.

We know that the previous two generations were the original,
Earth-born families. There were probably 60 children in that
group, who had the 30 children under discussion here. Starting
with this generation, they would need to go to two children per
couple in order to maintain the thirty person optimum.

> As with all sci-fi stories the story shines by the wonderful
> character descriptions and interactions.  Your characters have
> depth and show the issues of being young and alone.

> Absolutely wonderful.

I agree with both! They were worth saying again.

DrBill

An excellent story but with the delay of episodes post part 7 I decided to reread it again.

One issue I found that nobody else has commented on is that all the parents appear to only have had one child.  All the children are aged 14 and there is no indication of twins etc.  Therefore there will be half the number of children each cycle.

As with all sci-fi stories the story shines by the wonderful character descriptions and interactions.  Your characters have depth and show the issues of being young and alone.

Absolutely wonderful.


Hugs

Karen

This is a really nice story and definitely stands out from the crowd. It has the absolutely key issues for success. It is forced in so much as Steve has no choice. It has reluctance, at least thus far although I do notice a certain amount of acceptance which to my mind endangers the theme.I expect the next stage is a gradual filling out of his bras. We do seem to forget Karen as we are not able,as yet, to follow her progression. The final outcome is " stuck" and as this is heading toward a breeding line I guess I'll get what I'm looking for.!!My bet is that Steve and Karen end up an item. After all who else could understand the other better? This is the only story of the many 100's on the web that I am looking forward to. A simple thanks Sarah.

Let me just say I entirely agree with Dr. Bill about the quality of Angel's writing! It's me who should feel happy to be bracketed with her, so there!

After part 7

First, I stand corrected; thank you DrBill and Angel for your cemmentary.  Since an abrupt change  to Steve's new attitude would be unrealistic had he truely been as I described him, I believe your conclusions must be correct and mine in error.

Second, thank you Sarah, the corner has been turned.

Third, I LOVE the new Steve.  His attitude is exactly what I believe a boy forced to dress as a girl should be:  Be proud!  Never let 'em see you cry.  Be the best damn feminine girl you can be, and  show 'em feminine isn't synonymous with sissy.  You go, Stevie-girl !

PS - bet the machine won't let Charles be Stevie's date.

Kristi:

> I guess my only criticism of the machines logic is that if reproductive efficiency is the only criteria, then a differnt ratio
> would be more sensible. Especially considering this is a machine we  are talking about. So there would be about two males to
> about ten females. I have read a few Sci-fi novels, and that would be quite normal. I suppose the only explanation is that that
> would result in much unhappiness. I guess the machine may be advanced enough to know about a family unit and the
> dedication of one mate to another. It seems to be a big asumption though, all the same.

That depends on what the Machine is optimizing for. Remember, its strategy is multigenerational in scope. Over the long run, ensuring genetic diversity among each generation is a vitally important part of "maximising breeding potential." While the 2/10 ratio would have a better chance of producing more children, their genetic diversity would be severely limited. While the ship will undoubtedly need to move to two children per couple (to maintain the size of the dwindling breeding population), it is still not a simple numbers game. We learned at the beginning of the first chapter that the optimum size for each generation is 30. When it actually comes to breeding, the Machine will probably take a strong hand in determining the breeding pairs (who might, or might not, be the couples that actually raise the children), in order to limit inbreeding and maximise diversity. As to the need for two parent families, they are both representative of the societal norm represented in the database and desirable for the sorts of caregiving necessary in the early years.


DrBill

Sarah!

My goodness girl you must be on cloud nine! I sure would be.

Not only do you have a hit of hits with this story, but the comments left here are a great read in themselves!

By the way, thank you for those very kind words Dr. Bill; I repect your opinions very highly and to be included with an author with such skill as Sarah's, well, thank you.

Huggles
Angel O.

Dear Sarah:

My comments were just erased by AOL but I will try again. Your story is excellent as usual. I think you are keeping all the machinery at bay. Please don't let it get too prominent and overshadow the characters.

You have created several empathetic characters and of course we love sweet Steve or should I say Stephanie or Stephie. He has turned the corner now and will appreciate what the machine has done soon enough.

I really care about these characters and please don't cut the story short and allow us to be sure that at least Steve is OK. That is my only actual complaint about some of your other stories, that you do a super fast wrap and summary. Please at least let us know that Steve is OK. I think that Stephanie and Karl will make a cute couple, but of course I could easily be wrong about my assumptions. I will galdly be corrected. I only want more of this excellent story.

I guess my only criticism of the machines logic is that if reproductive efficiency is the only criteria, then a differnt ratio would be more sensible. Especially considering this is a machine we are talking about. So there would be about two males to about ten females. I have read a few Sci-fi novels, and that would be quite normal. I suppose the only explanation is that that would result in much unhappiness. I guess the machine may be advanced enough to know about a family unit and the dedication of one mate to another. It seems to be a big asumption though, all the same.

Please keep up the excellent work. I do love this story.

Kristi

> Comment by Pippa K. on 11/26/04

> All in all, I think "G11" (the story and the character) is a
> marvelous confection, and I am anxiously awaiting the rest of the
> story to be posted.  I love it, and I love Sarah Bayen's writing
> more and more with each story I read!  She has a knack with irony
> and with depicting hidden emotions, revelations, and character flaws
> (and most especially, hidden strengths!) that are a match for any
> form of fiction, tg or otherwise.

I fully agree.

> Meanwhile, I'm truly amazed at the time, effort and ferocity some
> readers have invested in deconstructing and analyzing all the
> details of the story, and its classification.  

I'm not. It's not that uncommon for good, intriguing stories released in serial form (with significant delays between chapters), which are written in such a way that readers strongly identify with and/or care about certain characters. Sarah has a talent for such writing.

> Wow!  Never even mind stuff here on Storysite, mainstream authors of
> books that attract devoted fans (like J.K. Rowling), don't even
> attract more debate!  

First, I think you are largely wrong. The debate over those mainstream authors is spread across a larger number of venues, and can be very active. Second, the nature of the release plays a large part in the nature of the debate. The Potter books, while parts of a seven part over-story, are complete stories in their own right. These chapters, released several days apart, are not self contained in that way. They raise issues and leave them open. They put the valued character(s) through adversity, with hints of more adversity to come. They create perceptions and reactions.

These debates and the like can be very valuable to the author. Most authors have an idea where they want the reader to be at a particular place in the story. If the debates and other comments indicate that they are somewhere else, it is time to look again at what has gone brfore and what it will take to get it back on track (if it can be done at all). They also serve as an indicator of the intensity of the audience - the appreciation for the story (or, sometimes, not).

> But, I wonder.  Couldn't all this written effort be better used to
> produce more stories?  

If all things - and people - were equal, then probably so. But they are not.

> DrBill, you are obviously literate and passionate.  

Thank you?

> Have you ever considered putting your talents to use as an author
> of fiction?  You obviously have some very heart-felt opinions about
> this type of entertainment, which are a shame to waste.  Please say
> you'll give it a stab!  I'd very much like to see what your fertile
> mind could produce.

What is the difference between a snapshot of a scene and an artistic representation of that same scene?


A snapshot of a scene gives a detailed image of what a human eye would have seen at that time and place. With most cameras, every part of the picture is equally detailed and equally in focus. It is very explicit, What you see is what you got. An artist, while portraying the same scene (with whatever medium: photography, paint, sketches, whatever), will subtly (or sometimes not so subtly) distort the literal details of the image in order to convey a meaning, to give it value beyond "this was there, then". Parts may be blurred, or more/less detailed, or may even be moved around (I never did care all that much for cubism).

As Christopher Isherwood famously said, I am a camera. I do have some small skill with things like research, technical writing, reports, even position papers and the like. My strengths, such as they are, lie in detail orientation, analysis, problem solving, reporting, and convincing argument. But it comes at a price. My dissertation was so dry that you could start a fire by rubbing two pages together. When I try to write a story, it looks like the narritive in a police report or an exercise from Freshman Composition.

People like Sarah and Angel are artists. They can use combinations of dialog and description to make characters "more real than real". They can make many of us identify with a character, then live through various events. They can make us care about - or hate - a character. They can make us experience a series of events more vividly than a movie ever could. They can also start from a fairly ordinary event and take readers through unexpected twists and turns to somewhere we never expected to be. If I have any shread of those talents, I have yet to find it.

People like me *can* be valuable to the real artists. I can be an editor and/or continuity checker. I can be a researcher. I can propose solutions to story problems, keeping those proposed solutions in character with the people and the setting. I have written whole scenarios, which artists have then turned into real stories. I have even worked as part of a famous group of videogame creators (and two other, less famous, groups).

Teamed with a genuine artist, I can help produce something worth reading. Without such an artist ... trust me, you wouldn't enjoy it.

DrBill

All in all, I think "G11" (the story and the character) is a marvelous confection, and I am anxiously awaiting the rest of the story to be posted.  I love it, and I love Sarah Bayen's writing more and more with each story I read!  She has a knack with irony and with depicting hidden emotions, revelations, and character flaws (and most especially, hidden strengths!) that are a match for any form of fiction, tg or otherwise.
Meanwhile, I'm truly amazed at the time, effort and ferocity some readers have invested in deconstructing and analyzing all the details of the story, and its classification.  Wow!  Never even mind stuff here on Storysite, mainstream authors of books that attract devoted fans (like J.K. Rowling), don't even attract more debate!  But, I wonder.  Couldn't all this written effort be better used to produce more stories?  DrBill, you are obviously literate and passionate.  Have you ever considered putting your talents to use as an author of fiction?  You obviously have some very heart-felt opinions about this type of entertainment, which are a shame to waste.  Please say you'll give it a stab!  I'd very much like to see what your fertile mind could produce.

I seem to have found the answer to one of my own questions/speculations.

Earlier, I wrote:
> And now there is a fresh dark area for speculation: ... Did it take steps to "adjust" his hormones, as it did with Karen?

After re-reading part 4, I noticed something I had sort of skipped before. When the Machine told Karen that it would stop her periods from recurring by adjusting her hormones, the dialog went on:

> "Hormones will not be administered in tablet form," the Machine told
>    her.

>    "Then how?"

>    The Machine clicked and whirred on. "They will be manufactured by
>    your bodies," it went on.

I just noticed that it said "bodies" (plural). From that time on, Karen started acting in a manner consistent with a reduction in estrogen and a significant increase in testosterone, while Steve started acting in a manner consistent with a significant reduction in testosterone and a major increase in estrogen. These chemically induced changes go a long way toward explaining what some people are seeing as increasingly feminine behaviors on his part. They are not, as some claim, indications of his "true nature". Even Colin would act in a seemingly more feminine way under the influence of such a hormone switch.

If this is the case, we can probably expect to see Steve starting to develop breasts in the near future. Probably just beginning with sore and sensitive nipples.

DrBill

Sarah -

I just wanted to add my comments here on the story.  It's one of the best multi-part stories I've ready in a long time!  You're doing an excellent job with the story.  I won't speculate where the whole thing will end cause I want to be surprised when it come to the final chapter.   ;)  I do like how you've tossed in a lot of little plot twists that I wasn't expecting.  Great job!  :)


Please, keep up the excellent work on the story.  I'm eagerly looking forward to all of the rest of the pieces!

Thanks for sharing it with us all!


*t*

Jezzi: I have to agree with Angel, in disagreeing with you. But I would go a bit farther.

> I think Sara is making us see that the machine is right; example:  
> his consideration of playing matchmaker at the end shows a feminine
> interest in and concern for relationships.

On the contrary, that is an example of his masculine traits. He is not looking to play matchmaker out of concern for relationships. Instead, he is debating what actions to take to solve problems that friends have discussed with him. He is thinking in terms of actions. In terms of stereotypes, it is a great example of a tendency that drives wives and girlfriends to distraction: she describes a problem, looking for empathy and bonding, and he tries to solve it instead.

> If Steve really was masculine, he'd play football in the damn
> leotard and it would make him play harder and meaner.

Hardly. As a boy, he is acutely aware that such an outfit would be grossly inapropriate for the activity. More importantly, it would mark him out for ridicule and other forms of harrassment. There is no way it would fail to interfere with the game itself. Unless he was so much a macho jerk that he didn't care about screwing up the game and provoking unnecessary fights (a bit to the far side of Colin), he would (and does) avoid the problem. Again, an entirely masculine approach to the situation.

> Instead he's rapidly becoming a passive submissive whiner - which
> to me will make him as poor a girl as it does a boy.  

He's not really becoming submissive. And we know that he has been fairly passive most of his life. He looked (looks) to his parents and others to handle the major problems and decisions. Even something as routine as the nontrivial use of the interface was handled by his parents. These events do not seem to be making him more passive. If anything, he is becoming less passive as the story goes forward. But he is choosing his battles a bit more now.

> I can't see him being happy however he ends up thanks to the
> machine, or the happiness will be a long time coming.

I tend to agree there. The fact that the change was forced on him against his will, and the traumas inflicted by the Machine and some of his peers in the process, will have caused lasting emotional damage.

> I think the question is will the temporary unhappiness Steve is
> experiencing result in him doing something drastic to himself or
> the ship before the long range happiness kicks in.  DrBill is right
> about it not being logical to damage the machine or look for a
> manual override, but why would Steve be logical?  

Logic has nothing to do with it. He has been taught from an early age that the Machine runs everything, and from a slightly older age that it was vital to their lives - that damage to the Machine could kill them all. It is literally inthinkable. As for looking for the Bridge or some "Command Central" or the like, he is so thoroughly aware of the ships reconfigurations that he would simply not think to look for that. In fact, such reconfiguration was the first thing he was dealing with in this story.  

> The longer he's in this passive/submissive self-pity state, the
> more illogical/violent may be his actions when his current
> unhappiness causes him to finally crack.  

You seem to be treating passivity and submission as the same thing. They are not. And despite his historically passive nature, he has been increasingly active and proactive as this has progressed. The problem is not his "passive/submissive self-pity state" as you put it, but the unremitting pattern of the Machine thwarting his attempts at active response. It is frustration, not "passive/submissive self-pity", that is likely to drive him (and/or Karen) to extremes.

> Of course, he could crack to sink permanently into his carricature
> of femininity state instead of into rebellion, either though would
> not lead to hapiness, I think.  

No, but it would get the Machine off his ass (pml) to a certain extent. He would be broken and unhappy, but less stressed.

> So far, it seems to me, there still has been nothing sweet or
> sentimental about this; it has been a forced femme soft core
> horror story.  

Good description.

> If there are, indeed, twelve parts to the story, then we've come
> half way and if it is going to become sweet and sentimental, the
> turnaround should be soon.

It may already be too late.

- - - - -

Angel: I largely agree with you.

> Since when is being logical to a fault whimpy?

It isn't. But some, who tend to confuse masculine with exageratedly macho, tend to regard any degree of thought as a non-masculine trait.

> Since when is putting others before yourself Girlish?

It isn't.

> Since when is it effeminate to realize that against a machine you
> must use your wits and cunning to try and manipulate a result you
> want?

Perhaps more to the point: use not only your own wits, but the wits, experience, knowledge, and other resources of your peers. Of course, the masculine=macho crowd would demand that he try to do it all himself, no matter how ineffective.

- - - - -

Pippa: Obviously, I disagree with your interpretation.

> Oh, my sweet darlings.   I see the problem.  You're not allowing
> yourselves to see the humor.  

On the contrary, I suggested that the story could become the basis for a good Space Comedy (e.g. Red Dwarf) television series. With a bit of rework. However, I think you are seeing humor where it isn't intended.

> This posting is probably a mistake, so let me apologize in advance.  
> I know better than to incite or prolong anything approaching a
> flamewar.  This will be my last comment on the subject, and it's
> only one person's opinion, and I'm nobody.  Really.  I'm just one
> of a zillion other people who enjoy reading.  You don't need to
> convince me of anything.  I especially apologize to DrBill.  

No need. You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong or irrational it is. q-;

> So, there.  I hope you'll forgive me.  Now, here's the "reasoning"
> behind my feelings (which are, like other feelings, just feelings,
> and don't really work by logic):
> Steve's predicament is, above all else, funny!  

It started out that way. But then it quickly got painful instead.

> Found myself giggling aloud reading Part 6.  Yes, the machine is
> authoritarian.  Yes, Steve is fighting it.  Did you ever see a film
> in which W.C. Fields, or Jacques Tati starred?  

Several.

> Or Peter Sellers' Pink Panther series,

The first one was good. Most of the rest were tedious.

> or one of Woody Allen's early films, or watch The Simpsons?  

Yes. Such comedy is based heavily on distance - on an inability of the audience to identify with the the comic figure to any great depth. Comedy is often described as tragedy twice removed. But this story is told - and told well - in a way that allows the reader to deeply identify with Steve. It does not create the distance necessary for it to be humor.

How many of the movies/shows you describe include multiple scenes of the "comic protagonist" crying himself to sleep after the defeats and tortures you describe as pratfalls?

> In those movies, the comedic protagonist is out of sync, at least
> most of the time with, well, basically the whole universe.  Steve is
> having that problem.  

Not at all. He believes he is a boy, being forced to dress and live as a girl. The girls believe he is a boy, being forced to dress and live as a girl. Almost all of the boys believe he is a boy, being forced to dress and live as a girl. His parents believe he is a boy, but are not aware he is being forced to dress and live as a girl. The Machine is the one out of synch with the rest of the universe, but has - and is using - the power to force Steve to do what it wants.

> In Part 6, it's becoming totally clear that he might really be, in
> fact, 82% "feminine" in the classic stereotypical way:  caring,
> nurturing, decoratively artistic, supportive, passive, pliant.  

Certainly artistic. He is not shown to be any more or less supportive or caring than most of his male peers. We have seen that he is somewhat passive, but again not in a definitively (or even stereotypically) female way. He is not particularly pliant, but has given in when faced with overwhelming force or where he didn't really care about the issue. And there is nothing to indicate he is particularly nurturing.

> Even funnier, he's got the teenage girl thing going perfectly:  
> petulant, moody, insecure.  Yeah, yeah, some of it has to do with
> what's happening to him, but it really is starting to become clear
> that it's his current nature.  

Not even close. His responses are more angry and frustrated than petulant and moody - very masculine responses to the situation. As to insecure, he certainly is. Every part of his world that meant security  has been forcefully ripped away from him. He has lost his parents, his identity, his place among his peers, and the respect of many of his peers. Worse, the Machine has gone from a benevolent protector and supplier of all that is good and necessary to an irrational enemy, while maintaining its ultimate power on the ship. You are significantly underestimating the severity of the situation.

> Okay, The Machine WAS mean to him.  

It goes WAY beyond "mean".

> Like no one has ever needed to do something that would be perceived
> as mean by her to a petulant teenage girl before?  Please!  

Involuntary genital surgery goes way beyond your rather sneering standard. Being forced to wear the most exagerated clothing of the opposite sex in public, and ONLY such clothing, as well as being forced to always use the wrong restrooms and living quarters, go well beyond your description as well. Being told (with unquestionable authority) that your entire reprodictive system will be surgically removed goes far beyond that standard.

> But, there is no sign that The Machine is sadistic, or doing this
> for anyone's ultimate pleasure other than Steve's.  Really, there
> isn't.  It might be tempting to project such malevalence, but try
> to resist!

The bloodlessness of the Machine's "motivation" is entirely irrelevant. The ruthlessness with which it is pushing its agenda, and the devastating effects it is having on Steve, are the issues.

> Anyway, if you'd only give yourself a chance to reread this as a
> pratfall comedy, I think you'd see a different side of it.  

You could take the same approach to Texas Chainsaw Massacre, as well. That does not make it a particularly appropriate response to either.

> Of course, I have no way to know if that's how Ms. Bayen intended
> it, but I'm having too much fun to care.

It is clear that she does not intend it as a slapstick comedy. It is more a parable of death and transfiguration. She is taking him through the destruction of his world and his identity, into the depths of hopelessness. Then (since she is not the sort who tortures her main characters to death) something will rise from the ashes of that destruction. Who or what that something will be remains to be seen.

DrBill

Oh, my sweet darlings.   I see the problem.  You're not allowing yourselves to see the humor.  
This posting is probably a mistake, so let me apologize in advance.  I know better than to incite or prolong anything approaching a flamewar.  This will be my last comment on the subject, and it's only one person's opinion, and I'm nobody.  Really.  I'm just one of a zillion other people who enjoy reading.  You don't need to convince me of anything.  I especially apologize to DrBill.  So, there.  I hope you'll forgive me.  Now, here's the "reasoning" behind my feelings (which are, like other feelings, just feelings, and don't really work by logic):
Steve's predicament is, above all else, funny!  Found myself giggling aloud reading Part 6.  Yes, the machine is authoritarian.  Yes, Steve is fighting it.  Did you ever see a film in which W.C. Fields, or Jacques Tati starred?  Or Peter Sellers' Pink Panther series, or one of Woody Allen's early films, or watch The Simpsons?  In those movies, the comedic protagonist is out of sync, at least most of the time with, well, basically the whole universe.  Steve is having that problem.  In Part 6, it's becoming totally clear that he might really be, in fact, 82% "feminine" in the classic stereotypical way:  caring, nurturing, decoratively artistic, supportive, passive, pliant.  Even funnier, he's got the teenage girl thing going perfectly:  petulant, moody, insecure.  Yeah, yeah, some of it has to do with what's happening to him, but it really is starting to become clear that it's his current nature.  
Okay, The Machine WAS mean to him.  Like no one has ever needed to do something that would be perceived as mean by her to a petulant teenage girl before?  Please!  But, there is no sign that The Machine is sadistic, or doing this for anyone's ultimate pleasure other than Steve's.  Really, there isn't.  It might be tempting to project such malevalence, but try to resist!
Anyway, if you'd only give yourself a chance to reread this as a pratfall comedy, I think you'd see a different side of it.  Of course, I have no way to know if that's how Ms. Bayen intended it, but I'm having too much fun to care.

Hi Sweetie!

Another great chapter and you are getting so good at this! Giggle, giggle.

I marvel at the number of comments you get for your stories. You have that knack for getting people to discuss and debate your stories in a way that is unlike many other authors including myself! Giggle, giggle.

Of course Jezzi Belle is always with us with her intuition, thoughts and feelings and that is why we love her so much.

Trying to choose the correct key words and catagories for our stories has always been a chore for me. Each chapter has their own key words and to try and choose them for the whole of the story is an inadequate process! They should allow us to choose them for each part of the story we post. (Just IMHO.)

Since when is being logical to a fault whimpy? Since when is putting others before yourself Girlish? Since when is it effeminate to realize that against a machine you must use your wits and cunning to try and manipulate a result you want?

No, I dissagree with Jezzi Belle this time. Giggle, giggle. From what little we know of Steves past, we cannot make the assumptions Jezzi has willingly made. I guess if we are to make assumptions on reasons not defined or portrayed I would say the boy is artistic with a natural ability to coordinate color and form.

He has been made to assert himself as a male while growing up and still finds himself wiloling to help others even though it is against his wishes to do so. He logicaly thinks things through, sometimes very quickly and makes a definate decision on the spot! Unlike the girls designing their dresses with him. That is a male trait, using logic and then making a decision based on that logic. Now being a youger boy, well they are more macho about their decision making, and include the male ego in with the logic. Not so for an artist!'

Well, that is my opinion anyway. Giggle, giggle.

Huggles Sarah!
Angel O.

After part 6:
I wonder how long it will be before Steve thinks of hurting himself to make the machine realize how unhappy he is?

I think Sara is making us see that the machine is right; example:  his consideration of playing matchmaker at the end shows a feminine interest in and concern for relationships.  If Steve really was masculine, he'd play football in the damn leotard and it would make him play harder and meaner.  Instead he's rapidly becoming a passive submissive whiner - which to me will make him as poor a girl as it does a boy.  I can't see him being happy however he ends up thanks to the machine, or the happiness will be a long time coming. I think the question is will the temporary unhappiness Steve is experiencing result in him doing something drastic to himself or the ship before the long range happiness kicks in.  DrBill is right about it not being logical to damage the machine or look for a manual override, but why would Steve be logical?  The longer he's in this passive/submissive self-pity state, the more illogical/violent may be his actions when his current unhappiness causes him to finally crack.  Of course, he could crack to sink permanently into his carricature of femininity state instead of into rebellion, either though would not lead to hapiness, I think.  So far, it seems to me, there still has been nothing sweet or sentimental about this; it has been a forced femme soft core horror story.  If there are, indeed, twelve parts to the story, then we've come half way and if it is going to become sweet and sentimental, the turnaround should be soon.

To Sarah:  None of my comments are intended to show dislike for your story.  I think the large number of comments and the length and detail of them indicates that, like myself, many others are enjoying it enough to want to discuss it in such detail.  You go, girl!

> Comment by Pippa K. on 11/22/04

>     Am twitching like a madwoman, waiting for Crystal to post the
> rest of the chapters that Sarah has already uploaded to the queue!  

Well, now another one has been posted. Let us know what you think!

> I have no way of knowing how many parts there are in all, but there
> are at least going to be 12.  So, the story's largely written, and
> we've barely seen the half of it.  

Not necessarily. Like her "Contest" stories, this is well set up to be a multiple story sequence.

> To those of my fellow readers who are concerned about the
> "sweet/sentimental" tag, I'd say to keep your knickers on.  If you
> haven't read one of Sarah's stories before, I strongly suggest you
> go back and catch a few.  

I have (as indicated by my repeated references to her "Contest" stories).

> She's taken us on more than a few bumpy rides before, and I've never
> regretted the trip!  

That is the problem - it isn't a bumpy ride. It is a remarkably smooth ride - straight down the pit. While others of her stories have included adversity, despair, and humiliation, they have been balanced along the way with love and elation. For Steve, the story to date has been one of extreme setbacks and repeated humiliation unrelieved by any corresponding highs. The few positives are moderate at most, and almost always spoiled by the actions of the Machine (directly or indirectly) and/or the (generally inadvertant) actions of his peers. His few glimmers of hope have been ruthlessly destroyed by the Machine.

While I admire Sarah's artistry, and am enjoying the story itself, I must agree with Jezzi and some of the others: no amount of positives in the second half could possibly balance the emotional and situational negatives of the story enough to warrant the "sweet/sentimental" category. To date, this is a story of forced feminization and public humiliation at the "hands" of an extremely powerful Authority - an Authority that has used force, blackmail, and even involuntary surgery to push its agenda.

> Sometimes, in real life, it rains before the sun comes out.

Nietzsche was more wrong than right: that which does not kill us will cripple us more often than it will make us stronger. This isn't just rain, it is an extended downpour with a flash flood.

----------

Jezzi: There are simple answers to your last two questions.

> Why don't he and karen try damaging the machine?  

Because to do so would be to risk not only their lives, but also those of everyone else on the ship (living or suspended). Their friends, their parents, everyone.

The most they would be likely to do is piss somewhere inapropriate in protest of the latest involuntary modifications to their bodies. I wonder what would happen if they tried to piss through one of the force fields - perhaps into the appropriate restroom? That could be painful!

> Or looking for some sort of control room to see if there is some
> sort of manual override switch?

Given the Machine's tendency to reconfigure the ship, there is very little chance that there is any route to the control room available. Chances are that it will be close to 8 years (the duration of this phase of their training) before there is any such path, and that even then it will be guarded by a force field like those at the entrances to the boys and girls residential areas.

DrBill

Am twitching like a madwoman, waiting for Crystal to post the rest of the chapters that Sarah has already uploaded to the queue!  I have no way of knowing how many parts there are in all, but there are at least going to be 12.  So, the story's largely written, and we've barely seen the half of it.  To those of my fellow readers who are concerned about the "sweet/sentimental" tag, I'd say to keep your knickers on.  If you haven't read one of Sarah's stories before, I strongly suggest you go back and catch a few.  She's taken us on more than a few bumpy rides before, and I've never regretted the trip!  Sometimes, in real life, it rains before the sun comes out.

I agree that through part 5 there is nothing sweet/semntimental about this, and a lot of very negative catagories not listed that should be.  So far this is a VERY dark tale.  I like the fight scenario suggested as an alternative to suicide.  I do think Steve's snapping seems to be the only way to convince the machine he's unhappy, unless the machine can brainwash him into being a happy little girl, and if it could do that, why hasn't it already done so?  Why don't he and karen try damaging the machine?  Or looking for some sort of control room to see if there is some sort of manual override switch?

You know what I'm going to say. I'm loving where this is heading and everything thats been written so far.
As for whether its sweet/sentimental or Authoritatian all I'll say is wait and see. The machine has said that the only way for Steve to be happy in the future is for him to be a girl, so the possibility for happiness from the decisions the machine has made are there.
I cant wait to see whats to come.

Enjoying it so far

Sarah,

While I am enjoying your story and looking forward to later chapters, I have to agree with Jenna: The story does not match the story codes. If those codes match your intended focus of the story, you might want to consider whether we are seeing what you want us to see. From what I see so far, there is virtually nothing of the sweet and the predominent sentiments have been anger, anguish, contempt, and fear. Not what is usually meant by "sentimental". On the other hand, several codes would have been appropriate to add: Bizarre Body Modifications (per part 5), Female to Male Transformations (Karen), Femdom/Authoritarian (the Machine), Physically Forced or Blackmailed (the Machine routinely employs both), and The Operation (whether or not the rest happens, it is a major ongoing element).

Is it consistent with your artistic vision that so many of your readers are speculating about suicide attempts (and methods) after the first few parts? If so, then you are right on track. If not, then perhaps some adjustments are in order.

Like many of the others here, I offer my comments as honest feedback for you. I believe that you have an idea where you want the readers to be at various parts of the story. If we are, and we let you know that, it tells you something. But if we are not, it may be telling you something even more important. That is for you to judge.

Our speculations may tell you even more than our general reactions.

And now there is a fresh dark area for speculation: While the Machine was conducting its operations on its unwilling victims, what else did it change? Did it sterilize Steve, as it had done with Karen? Did it take steps to "adjust" his hormones, as it did with Karen? Did it render him impotent (as the "limp penis" event would seem to indicate) and/or interfere with her arousal mechanics (including lubrication)? If not, where would his semen exit - the old opening or the new?

I suspect that it will not take us long to learn the outcome of Charles' request. While it is clear that Steve is unlikely to benefit from the proposed "swap", it seems extremely unlikely that Charles is more than 45% male (if that), and he is unhappy as a male. He is a good illustration of the difference between a "real" TS (or TV) and Steve and Karen. Of course, if the Machine was calibrated for the spirits of the Others rather than humans, then the results are up for grabs (as may have been the case with Steve). And even if it was calibrated for humans, how big and broad a sample went into the calibration? But barring such gross error, the Machine should have no individual reason to deny Charles his request.

And it STILL looks viable as either an Anime or a (British) space comedy with little change (although the performers might have to "force" some interpretations that some of us are not reading there).

DrBill

I've read all five parts posted so far, and have really enjoyed each one.  I am not a critic, but I do know what I enjoy...  and this certainly meets the description.  Thank you.

Hi Everybody.

I'm glad people are enjoying this story and thanks to everyone for their comments.
Gosh, I don't know what to say about all the speculation about where this is heading! I certainly don't want to do any spoilers, so I think I'll just let people speculate on.
Special thanks too, to the girl who emailed me from Iraq. The return address doesn't work, so I hope you can take this as a reply. It must be hard out there at the moment, and if stories like this and other better ones on this site take your mind off things, then we're doing a small service to you who are doing a bigger one to us, regardless of whether the war's right or wrong.


Love


Sarah

Nice story but definity NOT Sweet/Sentimental I think
rather Authoritarian with the cold calulating machine.
Steve diffinitly does not find this sweet.

With all the suicide (attempt) speculations, I think another possibility is being overlooked. Instead of a direct suicide attempt, I could easily see Steve snapping after another round of Colin's harrassment and launching into a fight with the attitude "One of us is going to die here and now, and I really don't much care which." With nothing to lose (beyond life as a tortured outcast), the things that would normally limit such a fight to painful but superficial injuries would not be in effect. Colin, who has reason to seriously underestimate Steve, is the most likely candidate for serious (possibly life threatening) injury before the others or the Machine can stop the fight. All told, not a pleasant possibility.

DrBill

More Please!
I love it!

Brilliant Sarah.  Love the story so far (part 4).
And I get frustrated by automatic telephone answering machines...
Hugs, Annabel

Yup. A nice silkys dress would work for hanging ones self. I wonder if there is any thing sharp around. it all seems rather hopeless and painful. Why go on, looks like a painful life for someone who maybe 82% fem but identifies as a guy. Yes, if he could tolerate being a girl he *might* fit into everyone else's world better, but he wouldn't be himself. I think a few of use could relate to that.

How is the machine going to continue to insist he's happy when he tries to kill himself.  That certainly seems to be where this is leading.

Great story!! Please continue!!

I must say I enjoyed your story very much. It is both interesting and arousing. Very well written!!!

Please continue.

Sara

Just a thought: If Steve and Karen can keep their opposition up for a little over a year, they should be able to virtually force the Machine to restore their sexual identities and Karen's fertility. There is a very narrow window for breeding the next generation on schedule, and an urgent need for everybody to contribute to the next generation gene pool. Since the Machine will not "correct the genital anomalies" without  their consent, a failure to allow them to breed in their original roles would irreparably damage two highest priorities: the breeding program and their happiness. And once they move beyond that window (with or without breeding), there is little point in trying to force the gender reassignment.

And the story STILL has the makings (with very little change) of an anime series or a Brittish space comedy.

DrBill

I've held off reviewing until now.   So lets get started with the review then!   AMAZING STORY!   I had a few doubts about it at the strat if I would like it but by chapter two it had grown on me rather well.   Steve's forced lot in life is and should be a bump road.   I don't see him or Karen as TS, but rather a machine that miss-read their 'ghost-spirit' personas.   Just because Steve is a little more emotional and seems drawn to art and design doesn't make him a woman.  That is like saying every designer must be secretly gay if that person is male, or that if a woman works construction or some other so call -manly- job she too is gay.   Steve is just him and Karen is just her, plain and simple.  Again at least in my eye.   This is why the story is so great as well as painful.   Great in it allows us readers an amazing adventure to see, but painful in the fact that it is ripping apart the person that is Steve to make him into something he is not.   The sad thing is that no one seems to notice this.   Take the part at the end of this last chapter.   If the Machine is so worried about Steve's happy feelings it should see that he is not real part of the group.  Sure a couple of girls talk with him at night, but the second something to do with being a girl pops up he is left behind both by his own feelings and the fact he is not truly part of the group.  

Now we have the girls in trousers and Steve trapped in skirts.  This is going to be an emotion storm for him.   Suddenly he might be the only person in a skirt.  This leads to torment by a few jerks on the boy side and I hope causes Steve to both become emotional at the taunts as well as withdrawn for a time.  This will allow the girls to see I hope part of his pain.   It would also mean that as Steve withdraws that the Machine might recuit some of the girls to draw him out or they might do it on there own.   I'm waiting for the day that he pops his top when every other girl is in trousers, having fun being themselves while he is stuck in dresses and forced to live as a girl.   Also the Machine might want to think if its idea might start to cause Steve to think of ending his life, or at least show at a point he is THINKING it.   So far he is FAR from HAPPY and it should show more and more.

Other than all that rant from me, amazing story and I love some of the little sceens in it.  Hope many more chapters are to come!

-J-

Ouch! That was a setback!

First, a brief answer to Samantha's comment. The spelling errors I alluded to were those that turned the desired word into another, grammatically incompatible or otherwise obviously wrong, word. Such as Angel's example of "off" becoming "of" (or vice versa). They have nothing to do with the US/UK differences in spelling. And as I mentioned, even those are rare enough and harmless enough that they don't interfere with enjoyment of the story.

And an answer to Jezzi: On point 2 you were obviously much closer than I was. @#$%! I still suspect that some of my speculations will eventually bear out, however. Obviously, point 1 has been rendered moot by the Machine's social blackmail.

And on to the chapter 4 comments! Given its focus on happiness, I am surprised that the machine has done nothing about the escalating harassment of Steve. Especially the vitriol of Colin, with the associated history of physical violence. That is not just a happiness issue, but a safety issue as well. I can understand allowing some of the rest, as a way to disrupt the social bonds that help reinforce Steve's male self image. But this goes well beyond that, posing a significant threat to Steve's well being (AND happiness). Both (but especially Steve) are likely to be significantly worse off as outcasts from their tight, closed little society than as "wrong souled" members of the sex(es) they grew up in.

What's more, Colin's kind of habitual emotional (and apparently physical) abuse would pose a significant long term threat to the integrety of the Colony, factionalizing it to the point of losing its viability. And if he was allowed to pass that abusiveness on to any offspring, the disruption would approach certainty.

On a more trivial note, I am surprised that the B's and G's have not set up a less cumbersome way to communicate room to room. Especially for shared facilities and the like. If nothing else, a suitably flagged brief email for "I'm going to use it" and "I'm out" would beat going door to door (especially for toilet runs). Or even something as simple as the first one in knocking on the other door twice when "she" goes in and 3 times when "she" leaves. Or even simpler, knock when you want to go in, and if there is not a sound from inside within X seconds, go in (we now know that doors or walls are not soundproofed). I can understand the shellshocked (and not overly technical) Steve failing to come up with something, but the rest don't have that excuse.

When do we get the next chapters??!!!

DrBill

Lets put this spelling thing to bed once and for all please. Sarah is indeed writing using British English. I have a copy of an American Dictionary in front of me and it had BOTH spellings of COLOUR in it. In my British Dictionary (Shorter OED), there is only the British version.
I write in British English and have done all my life. I worked for a now defunct American Computer Company for over 20 years often writing technical and user documents. I never had problems like this as it was accepted that small differences like this were not a big problem.
Keep up the excellent writing Sarah and let all authors write in their best version of English and let the readers accept that there are differences according to location. Now if we were writing in French then that would be another matter. Les Academie Francais would be watching us like Big Brother mes amies.
Looking forward to the next episodes....

Just love the story.
I wish that would happen to me!...hahaha
Does this ship have a swimming pool aboard?, that would make things interesting!

Torture, torture, torture, torture!  This story is soooooooooooo good, and I understand that Sarah has submitted 9 (nine!) more parts for a total of 12 (twelve!!) so far and Crystal has only posted 3!  Crystal, Crystal, Crystal, please, please, please, pleeeease!  Pretty please?

Jezzi, there appear to be answers to your points 1 and 3. I don't really agree with your #2, but time (and chapters) will tell. I have already posted my take on the possibilities.

On point 3, there doesn't seem to be any basis for your observation. There were no classes on the day of the classification, and the latest chapter ended that night. It did allow the appointment to be made during  class time, but we don't know how hard Karen had to work to get it that early. Also, in "normal" schools, the situation would equate to a special case Excused Absense rather than a policy of disinterest.

Point 1 merits a general response as well as specifics to a and b. First, he is in shock from having two devastating emotional blows in the same day: the (temporary, but very long term) loss of his parents, and the "mistaken" classification. He is also a bit immature for his age, and grew up overly dependent on his parents for day to day decisions and details. He seriously lacks initiative.

Regarding 1a, we know additional things. He was not close with any of the existing girls. With the single exception of Karen (and that only after her own classification), the girls were as quick to torment him about the problem as all but his closest friends among the boys. And until things would be resolved, he wanted as little contact as possible with any but his more comfortable and accepting peers. Even his neighbors had to virtually force their company and help on him. It would not to occur to him to take the emotional risk of approaching one of them for something so intimate, and if it did he would be exceedingly frightened by the prospect.

Regarding 1b, there are things we don't know as well as the things (above) that we do. We do not know whether he has access to tape or stapler/staples, much less (given his emotional state) something ro cut the fabric with. Even if the machine would allow access, he wouldn't think to ask. Remember, he didn't even think to request a belt until one of the girls suggested it.

The story (so far) seems well thought out and well written. There do not seem to be any major errors or inconsistencies. There are a few spelling and grammar errors, but they are minor at worst. The seeming issues raised by you and Shinigami are either addressed within the text or based on unjustified (IMHO) speculations about the Machine's programming. So far, it is surprisingly tight and consistent and (unsurprisingly, given Sara's track record) entertaining.

DrBill

Still looks good for either kind of series! (;

Keep up the wonderful work! More! We want More! (:

DrBill

Ah!  Can't wait for 4!

1)  Why didn't Steve a) ask one of the girls similar to his size if he could borrow her trousers for the morning meeting (I'm assuming they only get one outfit at a time.) or b) try to modify the skirt - cut a slit up the front and back and use tape or staples to make pant legs

2)  I thnk the machine realizes that Steve and karen are TS but don't realize it; he is acting stereotypically feminine in regard to Karen, while she is acting quite stereotypically masculine.  The machine's ban on certain clothes applying only to those two would indicate that this is being done deliberately to force them into their new genders.

3)  Why didn't the machine seem to care whether Steve went to class or not?

Hello again Sarah,

Well, you have done it again Sweetie; you have produced another great story. Wonderful writing and very, very few errors. Maybe none at all since you are writing UK style. Giggle, giggle.

I know the UK folks spell words differently; they like to add a 'u' to everything. Giggle giggle.

One question if I may. Is it also the UK style to use 'OF' for the word 'OFF'? I help proof for Karen Page and she tends to use OF when the word needed is OFF. Is this another difference like the word colour? We spell it 'color'. Giggle, giggle.

Huggles
Angel

I love this story and can't wait for the next episode. Keep up the wondurful writing girl!

I love this story and the way it is progressing. I just wish that the episodes would be posted faster as the suspense is terrible. (-;

Odd thought...

So far, the story has the makings (with very little change) of an anime series or a Brittish space comedy. Too bad there is no appropriate US genre.

DrBill

Just wanted to add on that it should be interesting to see where the story goes to. What with The Machine calling his penis an adnormality and won't let him order pants or shorts only skirts makes one wonder if the machine is planning SRS on him in future.

I also disagree with Shinigami about the uniforms. This phase of the kids' educations will contain significant sex specific elements (particularly those in preparation for the breeding programme and those covering certain hygene issues). It will be preparing the students for social roles in the (of necessity) harshly regimented shipboard society and (later) the colonial society, marking a significant departure from their earlier lives. It will also be laying the groundwork for the clear differentiation between "on duty" and "off duty" times, and the attitudes and activities appropriate to each. The uniforms provide a significant reinforcement for many of the relevant issues - a visible and tactile reminder of their new status. Just as the B/G designators reinforce the difference between their former (C) lives, their eventual (A) status, and their current situation.

Such uniforms have been used for centuries, generally with great effect. While in our own societies the kids get much of the relevant information from parents (and other relatives), community adults, teachers, and the like, these kids have only each other and the Machine. The Machine is engaged in high pressure (and high stakes) social engineering on the only readily available members of its living crew and breeding stock. It needs them "up to speed" as quickly and efficiently as possible in certain functional areas. It has to use every tool and advantage available to it. There will probably be segregated classes for some of the more complex technical subjects, with presentations tailored to the (few, but significant) differences in effective learning approaches.

In an established, planet-based society with multiple generations available, a sufficient and stable (or growing, at an appropriate rate) population, and time for more traditional "growing up", the machine probably would not care about what people wore when. In the two-generation society before the status change, the machine probably did not care very much what the children wore (within limits), or what the parents wore off duty (again, within limits). Under the current circumstances, the Machine should care - and does.

As to the more specific issue of Steve's clothes, two possibilities come immediately to mind:
(1) It is disciplinary, in response to his behavior in the booth, or
(2) it hints that the gender swap was deliberate, and the Machine is working to reorient Steve to "her" new sex (And Karen to "his").

My money is on #2. There are several possible reasons, none of which are mutually exclusive. A display of power. An eventual demonstration of the medical facilities' ability to perform a complete, functional gender reassignment. An introduction to the concept of gender reassignment and acclimatization thereto (in case it is needed to balance the next generation of C's) - a weakening of the assumption that gender (or functional body form in general) is an immutable part of life. Demonstration models for (theoretically segregated) sex education classes. "Safe" resources for satisfying curiosity about the opposite sex (within reasonable limits). Practical resources for demonstrating the issues of living with a member of the opposite sex. A need for specific physical, mental, and/or emotional characteristics in combination with a specific sex - a combination which does not currently exist in the population, but would with the reassignment.

Or maybe the Machine Just got sloppy and classified the tall, assertive child as a boy and the short, emotional child as a girl. (:


DrBill

truely wonderful tale. Loved reading first two parts and look forward to more to come

Great work, can't wait for more!

Gotta watch those computer spell checkers!

You have the kids being sent to the Refractory rather than the Refectory.

Soon your hero will be considered "as headstrong as an allegory on the banks of the Nile."

Great story, though.

Great fun and really well written by a talented author.

Really, really great story. Can't wait for the rest!

Well you have me hooked.

Regarding the comments about the school uniform from Shinigame, it's ireasonable to assume the machine would look in a database for clothing appropriate for the childrens ages. School uniforms would certainly fall in there.

keep up the good work Sarah. You have been away too long.

Very well written! It was completely publishible up to the point where the Machine insisted on school uniforms. A computer wouldn't care about what clothes they would wear. That part's pure fantasy, but then that's why we have this site isn't it?

You do really well showing Steven's character in the beginning and the scifi element was intriguing on its own. You should really consider making an alternate version of this. You could even keep the gender switching. Jack L. Chalker does that all the time.

If you do decide to rewrite this, you might consider making the clothes a choice that he makes much later on rather than something forced on Steven. That would be more believable and perhaps more powerful.

Excellent work. Thanks for posting.

Intriguing start. I was a little surprised that the Machine let them through the opposite-designation doors, though. It will be interesting to see whether/how they get into their new rooms. Like TiffFox, I eagerly await the explanations and/or actions of the Machine.

I will also be interested in seeing what the ship society's attitudes toward TV and TS issues turn out to be. The reactions of the room would seem more based on youth and the unexpected than on hostility and/or prejudice. Likewise, the reactions of the misassigned(?) can be put down to the unexpected and unwanted changes in designation rather than societal or personal views. IMHO

DrBill

Awesome start to the story

Can't wait for the next

It'll be interesting to hear the Machine explain itself (if it ever does) and to see what type of reinforcement it will offer to the misfiled kids



(I had one I wanted to do where a spaceliner cruise ship crashes with a beauty pagaent occuring on board, and the ship malfunctions for one of the crewmen, but this one is much more inventive)

I dont usually go for Sci-fi stories, but i really liked this one- it has a very intriguing premise and could go a long way.  I look forward to part two.